Hi, I got a few suggestions for the table layout you are working on the units page:
- If a column is common to all ites in the table (here it would be faction) it would be best to remove it and add a note above the table instead -- though on that page it is also understandable from the header name.
- Add "id" markers to new rows with name of row (here it would be unit names). That way, they could be linked directly. For example, Colonizer.
- I'll be uploading any missing unit module icons so you can may want to prepare a place for them. They will join the rest of the icons already here Category:Module_icons.
- If a column has a common theme/icon associated with it it is easier to use that instead.
- columns where I'm unsure if they have such an icon are for now unknown.
- While roman numerical are nice looking 1,2,3 are much easily recognizable.
- No need to capitalize every word, the first on would suffice.
- Use icon as bulletin points. It makes it easier for the user to read.
- Use colored text (and bold) only when needed. It helps not to overload the user by making it easier to read.
- Have tables/columns use fixed width (percentage is preferred, point of reference of 1080P). This gives the page a more consistent look. This can also be done later.
I got to go for now, so will address the rest of your points (on my talk-page) a bit later. Enjoy the weekend. Edit: Due to a bug in the wiki I had to trim this bit. Hope it is still helpful. ~ SolSys (talk) 10:54, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the advice. I do like this table better. Here are my comments :)
- I wanted to add unit appearance icons as the first column, but as far as I'm aware we do not have any unit icons/images (except for vehicles) on the wiki.
- There is no icon in-game that signifies upkeep, it's simply spelled out. And just using the energy icon (in the header) just confuses things.
- Some of the icons that I feel are missing from the template.
- Also, there are no images for the NPC factions as far as I can tell.
- Hope I covered all points:
- My mistake. For some reason I though I had unit icons, but it is indeed unit module icons. In that case, the column icon can be removed.
- That would be a better id. Though I have several hours logged on Steam they were mainly for the wiki and not playing.
- Regarding movement, that is indeed what I meant (left a note in the table script, but should have made it clearer).
- The above reason also applies to upkeep. The question is whether there are other upkeep types other than energy?
- The main icon page is restricted. The sub-pages and the documentation are not. I have a bunch of more icons that will be uploaded later (mods, abilities, doctrines, operations and so on).
- I haven't added the weakness/resist icons yet since they don't look good when minimized (see above -- may need some editing).
- What is the action column for?
- Table has been modified to reflect raised points.
- So if I want to add icons I can add them to the subtemplates? I hadn't seen these before but I found them now. I could add movement at least - never mind, I see you already did it.
- The Action column lists the units Active Abilities, eg weapons abilities, buffing abilities etc. The Dvar colonizer doesn't have any Active Abilities which is why it's empty. Strictly speaking, the in-game view shows 4 different categories of abilities/traits, separated by horizontal rulers. Active Abilities, Resistances, Passive Abilities, Traits. This table lumps the resistances in with the passive abilities and named the active abilities column actions instead. I don't know why. I didn't make the original table, I only added some things. I didn't see any reason to change it either, both the Resistances and Passive Abilities are... passive... *shrug* They are functionally similar.
- There is a question if there is more information that should be added, I was thinking mainly of a Requirements column or similar. Listing prerequisite research and buildings. Also, not all units are built. Some, like the Dvar Sapper and Vanguard Valkyrie can only be summoned onto the battlefield by tactical operation and disappear at end of combat. Some units only appear during siege battles provided they have been built (eg Dvar Bombard). And some are launched from other units, eg Vanguard Engineer deploys their Turret and Vanguard Drone Carrier launches Assault, Repair and Skirmish Drones. None of this is apparent from the current table. Oh and also maybe base production cost.
- I did some further modifications to the table. This time I'm using a better example unit that uses all columns. I've added base cost and origin columns and made two variants, personally I prefer the second one.
Suggested table 1st ver Unit Tier Upkeep Base Cost Actions Abilities Traits Origin Earth Crusher 4 80 6 0 24 24
Suggested table 2nd ver Unit Tier Actions Abilities Traits Upkeep Base Cost Origin Earth Crusher 4 80 6 0 24 24
- Base cost is straightforward. I'm not sure about the origin column yet but I know I want something like it. As it turns out not all units are built in the colony (not even counting the NPC factions here). Some are only summonable onto the battlefield by a tactical operation (Dvar Sapper, Vanguard Valkyrie etc.) and disappear at the end of combat. Others are summoned by other units (Vanguard Engineer deploy turrets). Some appear in siege battles providing the prerequisite colony structure has been built (eg Dvar bombard). And ofc there are the research and building required to build normal higher tier units. None of this was in any way visible in the old table.
- If we could get the actual unit icons/images that would be awesome. NPC factions icons/images too.
- I haven't inspected every unit yet, but as far as I've seen all units of the same tier has the same upkeep regardless of faction. Tier 4 units have 24 and 4 in upkeep. And coming expansions might add units with more exotic upkeep I suppose.
- The Action column lists the units Active Abilities, eg weapons abilities, buffing abilities etc that can be used in battle. The Dvar colonizer doesn't have any Active Abilities which is why it's empty. Strictly speaking, the in-game view shows 4 different categories of abilities/traits, separated by horizontal rulers. Active Abilities, Resistances, Passive Abilities, Traits. This table lumps the resistances in with the passive abilities and named the active abilities column actions instead. I don't know why. I didn't make the original table, I only added some things. I didn't see any reason to change it either, both the Resistances and Passive Abilities are... passive... *shrug* They are functionally similar.
- Addendum: I've spotted some... irregularities in how some abilities/types of abilities are placed in the in-game unit viewer. For example, Overwatch is placed with thew passive abilities in-game, but by my definition, it is very much an active ability, since it appears on your ability bar and you use it in combat. Also secret tech unit passive ability/trait. Most secret tech has a trait among the passive abilities, but "Psynumbra unit" is placed in the traits section and Promethean doesn't have a unit trait at all it seems. ~ Woolly (talk) 14:00, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
- Got some more questions which may lead to easier table management:
- Do all units in a faction have the same race traits? For example, all units in the Dvar table have the Dvar trait.
- Isn't the movement trait a repetition of the move points column? For example, amphibious, land, water and etc.
- You mentioned upkeep costs being the same for all tiers. Does it mean it is also the same regardless of faction? And what about cost?
- That's it for now. I may have some more later. Night :) ~ SolSys (talk) 20:41, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- Got some more questions which may lead to easier table management:
- Some answers to your questions then:
- Yes all units in the Dvar faction have the Dvar race trait, and this applies similarily to all player factions afaik. The secret tech tables will also have units that have racial traits and those contain units from multiple races. See Promethean units
- According to the in-game encyclopedia, game concepts section (and don't I feel like a dumbass for not having looked there before), yes all unit have upkeep according to their tier in the 4, 8, 12, 24 4 pattern
- Re movement, sort of. The move points column tells you how many movements points the unit has to spend, and in the current setup, makes clear which kind of movement the unit has. It is the unit trait that actually determines what kind of movement it uses. The game is somewhat inconsistent in how it uses the movement symbols. The in-game encyclopedia unit viewer/right-click unit viewer always uses the general movement icon next to the movement points for units stats. But if you select an army they will have the correct movement type displayed above the unit portrait, except for land movement, which uses the general icon instead of the boot icon for some reason.
- Base cost, which is what I started with, is not the exact same across tiers, tho many units of the same tier do have the same cost. See the Promethean units the Dvar units are more expensive. All units appear to have a base (production) cost stat listed. But if a unit is not buildable that stat seems rather meaningless. For summons it would be better to list operations cost and NPC units can only be bought with influence even if you own the dwelling. And ofc there are units that can both be summoned and built normally just to make it a little bit more complicated.
- Regarding traits in general, some traits are the sources for other abilities that a unit has, for example, a unit with the "Mechanical" trait, according to the tooltip, makes the unit resistant to psi and weak to arc dmg. The trait "Heavy Unit" gives stagger resistant, but I haven't been able to determine what determines a units level of stagger resistance (resistant or immune).
- Traits (sigh) Since I looked in the game mechanics section of the in-game encyclopedia I've realized a thing. This game does not use the word traits at all. There are only two categories of Abilities. Passive and active abilities. The originator of the unit table apparently came up with both "actions" and "traits" on his/her own.
- Some answers to your questions then:
- From what I deduce abilities are listed according to this general pattern in-game:
- Active abilities (if any)
- Passive abilities: Resistances and weaknesses (if any)
- Passive abilities: Stat buffs/debuffs and/or other effects (eg this unit can be used as cover). Abilities with passive effects in tactical combat (if any)
- Passive abilities: Strategic map/unit type abilities
- But wait, there is more. I'm not sure this is necessary info, but the table also doesn't list what each unit gains on rank up. It is usually +hp and something else (like +accuracy) per rank. With the last rankup often also giving an ability (such as "Ignore Overwatch") ~ Woolly (talk) 14:09, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- This is an open wiki. Everyone is welcome to contribute should they wish too. ~ 18:44, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
- Wouldn't the equipment page be suitable for modules? At most, the name can be changed later to something more fitting. ~ SolSys (talk) 21:57, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
- I'd agree with SolSys that renaming the current Mods page would be confusing since all the other paradox wikis have a page like that.
- The equipment page was where I assumed the mods would go. If you want an article name closer to the game than equipment...
- How about either "Modules" or "Unit mods" (the latter term is the heading in the in-game encyclopedia)? ~ Woolly (talk) 13:51, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Right now it looks like there are two different formats for units, the one under Dvar that has tier first and has icons for Health, Shields, etc and the one under Vanguard that has tier last. I think it'd be best to stick to one format and I prefer the Dvar one with tier first, does anyone have any objections?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Galbias (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- Hi and welcome to the wiki. The Dvar one is the latest iteration of the table while the Vanguard one was the first (discussions can be found Woolly's talk page). I'll go over it again over the weekend, but the format shouldn't change much. Also, please sign your comments with
~~~~. ~ SolSys (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- One other question, how are ability descriptions going to be handled? Ideal way would seem to be ability tooltip on mouseover (like the way that the Age of Wonders 3 wiki handles it, see here: https://age-of-wonders-3.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Dwarf_Prospector, however I'm not sure how that would be done on this wiki software. Galbias (talk) 23:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- For now it will likely be listed in a its own table to enable fast comparison and sorting. I thought on adopting the style as it certainly is visually pleasing, but due to each unit/ability being on its own page (and then called as a template) it might become a maintenance problem when changes will happen. If I'll manage to find a way to do it without atrocious data duplication (a big no-no) or (a slightly less big no-no) big maintenance overhead I'll do it. ~ SolSys (talk) 11:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)